Wasnt that we didnt know we had differences but we were Christians who were in it together. But these things do not happen independently of God. It is, imo, impossible to pin any of this down in some sort of neat and easy formula, but the Lord knows, we (humans) keep trying! A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world. They do not understand that there are alternative answers by good non-Calvinist theologians as well. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. For what its worth, Darcyjo, you have my respect as is deserved by a soldier in the front line of what Patricia King calls the Love War. about how wrong they are about what they have been taught (and therefore believe) about Calvinism/Reform/Tulip. Maybe Im wrong on that. Bring them to heaven? So if you say oh yes, bringing God glory is the sole reason for mankind without ever pushing back like you did, elastigirl, their tacit assumption is that you have just conceded the soundness of their doctrine. *Thank you* for this post, as well as for your use of the term non-Calvinist. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. Craigs got it right. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. How dare he write such a long work! But if you think about it, thats not all that surprising. Being able to truly believe that God predestined us for salvation, but never for damnation. Its a tough line to walk, though. CALVIN! Not that Im really doing this all that whole-heartedly. He sets a great example and I appreciate his ability to charitable in discussing beliefs that others dont believe or accept. Some Calvinists who want to make a distinction between hyper calvinism and proper Calvinism will gravitate to these equivocations in an effort to convince youand I suspect themselvesthat God in their construct is not some despotic puppet master who controls all things including abuse, rape, etc (e.g. Im just genuinely puzzled about this. In spite of the current emphasis on Neo-Calvinism, it is still a minority position. Theyve boarded a bus and decided to ride it to the end of the line. @ Katie: It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. Although I had been churched, I had rarely opened my Bible. , @ Hester: Likewise, Hester, likewise! I try to keep debates in check on the blog and steer away from them as my blog is supposed to be a safe place. We have a question for you? I didn't quite understand the sin stuff. The promises are over the top. Then I discovered I was not, and it was like a moment of deliverance from a mighty weight that had been pressing me down. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. The ideas of bad and good are meaningless in Calvinist doctrine. They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. Study some good books that present the non-Calvinist point of view. Mennonite churches are great in Canada, evangelical, women allowed in all roles, and not really on one side or the other, but are focused on outreach, missions and allow many different people to preach in their pulpits (including some who would call themselves Reformed). If youll forgive my expressing it so poorly meaning no disrespect to either of the TWW Jeffs nor to any other person who considers that Calvins conclusions were much the same as theirs would be its extraordinary how quickly the worldly order re-asserted itself. And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. My bet would be that some (many?) I dont even think PSA is limited to Calvinists- Lutherans believe it too, right? Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, (You must log in or sign up to post here. whats so complicated about that? Witherington doesn't like to be put in either camp, and Lenski is Lutheran. John Knox should be in the Reformation category (he lived in the early 1500s, not 1700). People need to practice their voice till they can mature in how they use it. Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. That they are the sole divine recipients of truth, again. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. It doesnt cause comfort, which might be expected, but revulsion because of the nature of evil. 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. Wow-at least you got the Christian part. I watched past the first 15 minutes to watch the whole thing, and the video host quotes Calvinists at many times (showing their quotes typed up on the screen), and some of the Cals he quoted do believe God is the author of evil. (It had seemed strange to pay for a gift. Julie Anne: They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. And later, mamas milkexactly what they need at the precise time they need it., Nick: Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need.. Should the conversation be halted? One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. Groovy, man. And its not because we cant or are unwilling (as in errant school children who just need some tutoring) to accept, Gods ways to be different from ours.. Which of us sat down in total ignorance, started at Genesis, and came up with a belief system? But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. from what Ive seen here, youve always been a gentleman and tolerant of others who do not believe as you do. From the Calvinist point of view, this part of their doctrine is the one that they can use to get along with . I am sorry those times seemed to have been exchanged for dogma over Christian friendship. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. I get called an Arminian routinelyLOL, I dont even know anything about Arminianism. . But I could not have thrown it were it not for my moment-by-moment dependence on the being and power of God. This is also (imo) true for many, many people. I am not faulting anyone or saying that Calvinists are lazy. There is some truth in this, but to bring thought control into it turns it into legalism. Someone should alert Crossway immediately. Toward that end, here are five Baptist theologians from the past I commend as must reading for every Baptist pastor. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. So many have been through one form of abuse or another and have needs that we should allow for, beyond social norms. Anyway, I am not talking doctrine here. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. But it's hard to beat J. I. Packer in any theological camp. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Arminian_denominations. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. A lot of people (hostile atheists especially) like to frame the whole ordeal as in, How mean or wrong it was of God to make that forbidden fruit tree when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, but the guy pointed out thats the not the way to look at it. Another thank you, this time for writing tenet instead of tenant. Anyway, if this means that God made you say the words, and made you think the thoughts that led to them, this is not what Calvin believed, though I think Hyper-Calvinists believe this. And, yes, there is much more to Calvinism than TULIP, though the two are thought of as interchangeable. Wehad the opportunityto spend the weekend with Wade and his family. The volumes below reflect Baptist beliefs and convictions, yet non-Baptists read many of these well-reviewed volumes as well. And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? Good point. But the main thing is that Ive been a Calvinist for a long time- probably 15 years. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org I could not get past the point of believing that God had ordained my abuse until I discovered there was another way of putting the jigsaw together. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. However, they are limited, just as we are. But I can tell you this, there are times in the past where I would have characterized the tone of TWW as anti-Calvinist. 16th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 17th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 18th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 19th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 20th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 12th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 13th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 14th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 15th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 16th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 17th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 18th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 19th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 20th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 21st-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, Roman Catholic theologians by nationality, List of Catholic philosophers and theologians, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lists_of_Christian_theologians&oldid=1083295880, Lists of theologians and religious studies scholars, Short description is different from Wikidata, Pages using sidebar with the child parameter, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, Eastern Orthodox theologians by nationality, This page was last edited on 18 April 2022, at 03:54. It was you! I know the moving target frustrates you, but when you say so many and this is directly in contrast to both my personal experience and the most important historical confession of the faith, I get frustrated. I ended up writing my final essay for my theology degree on the extent of the atonement. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. Comments moving to the To Calvinist posts from this point. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. [1] [2] For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian. CALVIN!, The Bible? Everything just fell apart. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? You can find this sort of material by googling for it. @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. Prayers are sustaining me right now. All the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, major liturgical Protestant groups like Lutheran and Anglican, and the Arminian/Methodist/Holiness line, which would include many Charismatics, Non-denominational, etc. Thank you, thank you, for getting it right! But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. I wish we didnt even have to talk about it. These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Your voice is missing! In both cases, mans mind is wholly incapable of real understanding. Roger E. Olson(born 1952) is Professor of Theology,George W. Truett Theological Seminary,Baylor University,Waco, Texas, USA.[1][2]. I do not know. In what way it is wrong needs to be determined. They will tend to use hyperbole to make their point. Its also what attracts many people to Calvinism nice boxes for everything, and rules connecting those boxes. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell?? Yes, some would slip away. Agree that you cant really know, truth, and as such you can have NO basis for denying their doctrine. Yet Calvin (and Luther Im Lutheran) were fallible and sometimes very sinful men.
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